Ignacio Conde Gutierrez asks the following:
"I have a question. Bhisma was aware of the best time to leave his body, and therefore he waited for many weeks to die, waiting for the sun starting its
uttarayana journey, from Capricorn to Cancer.
"The Bhagavad Gita mentions this
uttarayana motion of the sun but my question is, "which Capricorn, the terrestrial or the celestial one?"
"Poetically Bhisma waiting to die is nice but astronomically is also relevant. In those days the winter solstice was on 4 November (now is on 21 December). The Kuruksetra War, according to my calculations started on 10 August 3,128 BC, the 14th dark
tithi, and that was day
1. Bhisma fell on day 10 of that Battle or on 19 August. Therefore, he waited 77 days for the terrestrial winter solstice to happen. Some sources say 40 days and others say 58 days, but it could well be 77 days.
The relevant Sanskrit word in the Bhagavad Gita says '
jagat' meaning the terrestrial sky, which it makes sense as the terrestrial or tropical sky is called '
sayana' (with shelter) instead of celestial or sidereal sky called '
nirayana' (without shelter).
Humans are born in the terrestrial sky to have shelter and therefore I believe that Bhisma left his body on 4 November 3128 BC."
Thanks for your question. Let's take a look at the dates for the Mahābhārata war and the beginning of the Age of Kali.
Wikipedia tells me that
"According to the
Surya Siddhanta, Kali-Yuga began at midnight (00:00) on 18 February 3102 BCE. [4] [The footnote here cites
Matchett, Freda, "The Puranas", p 139 and Yano, Michio, "Calendar, astrology and astronomy" in Flood, Gavin (Ed) (2003). Blackwell companion to Hinduism.]
This is also considered the date on which Lord Krishna left the earth to return to Vaikuntha.[5] [The footnote leads to an article in the Times of India."
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Lord-Krishna-lived-for-125-years/articleshow/844211.cms]
Bhishma would have left his body sometime before this, since Krishna leaves Kurukṣetra after Bhishma's death, by all accounts. So, here the date 3102 BC is given.
This account appears to be coming from an ancient source: Aryabhatta. "
According to the astronomer and mathematician Aryabhatta the Kali Yuga started in 3102 BCE. He finished his book “Aryabhattiya” in 499 CE, in which he gives the exact year of the beginning of Kali Yuga. He writes that he wrote the book in the "year 3600 of the Kali Age" at the age of 23. As it was the 3600th year of the Kali Age when he was 23 years old, and given that Aryabhatta was born in 476 CE, the beginning of the Kali Yuga would come to (3600 - (476 + 23) + 1 (As only one year elapses between 1 BCE and 1 CE) = ) 3102 BCE.[6]"
As I said, I'm not an expert in astrology or astronomy; neither do I have any access to the critical source materials here.
I can neither confirm or deny the information.
An interesting account by Graham Hancock makes an attempt to link the beginning of Kali Yuga with the Mayan "Long Count" Calendar. Again, I have no real critical skills in the matter.
He seems to take issue with Aryabhatta.
" But when did the Kali Yuga begin? And when does it end? In spite of the elaborate theological framework which describes the characteristics of this age, the start and end dates of the Kali Yuga remain shrouded in mystery. The popularly accepted date for the beginning of the Kali Yuga is 3102 BC, thirty-five years after the conclusion of the great battle of the Mahabharata. This is remarkably close to the proposed beginning of the current “Great Cycle” of the Mayan Long Count Calendar in 3114 BC. It is of interest to note that in both of these cases the beginning dates of the respective cycles were calculated retrospectively. The Mayans had recomputed their ancient calendars sometime between 400 BC to 50 CE, at the ceremonial center of Izapa in Mexico, and fixed the starting date of the current Great Cycle of their Long Count Calendar. And in India, sometime around 500 CE, a major review of the Indian calendric systems had taken place. It was during this time that the renowned astronomer Aryabhatta had identified the beginning date of the Kali Yuga as 3102 BC. " https://grahamhancock.com/dmisrab6/
I've taken a look at these dates before on this blog. Here's a post:
post http://mexpostfact.blogspot.mx/2015/05/mahabharata-dates-and-narrators.html
As far as a date for the Kurukshetra War, or the Mahabharata goes, there is plenty of controversy. The critics always seem to argue for a later date. They like the idea that the Mahabharata is a derivitave work, with the Greek Iliad holding a higher place.
Dr. C.V. Vaidya of the University of Bombay writes in his 1905 publication, “The Mahabharata: A Criticism,” discusses a number of possible dates for the antiquity of the actual war described in Mahabharata.
He writes,”the earliest date assigned to the Mahabharata war is that fixed by Mr. Modak on the basis of some astronomical data found in the Mahabharata. He thinks that the vernal equinox at the time of the war was in in Punarvasu and hence about 7,000 years must have elapsed since then. Some thinkers, following the opinion of Varaha Mihira, believe that the battle was fought in 2604 B.C. European scholars on the other hand believe in the authority of a shloka in the Vishnu Purana that the war took place in about 1500 B.C. Mr. Dutta gives 1250 B.C. as the date of the Kuru Panchal war on the basis of the Magadha annals which show that thirty-five kings reigned in Magadha between the Kuru-Panchal war and the time of Buddha. …
The orthodox opinion, however, is that the war took place in 3101 B.C., calculating on the basis of the generally accepted belief in India that in 1899 A.D., five thousand years had elapsed since the beginning of the Kali-age. We agree with this orthodox opinion on the basis of both internal and external evidence.”
Another source explains that the "orthodox opinion" seems to be based on modern consideration of astronomical proof giving the date that the Kurukshetra war ended and Kali-yuga began as February 18, 3102 BCE at 2:27:30 am, based on the Surya siddhanta’s mention that during the change of Yugas, all 7 planets will line up along the elliptic of the Earth’s annual path in the constellation of Pisces, just before Aries on a Phalguni Amavasya day, the last day of the year.
At this point I must confess that I am not an astrologer and so, despite all scholarly research, I am not equipped to give an exact date for the end of the Kurukṣetra War or for the beginning of the age of Kali.
As Bhaktivinoda Thakura put it, “The future swanlike scholars can determine the correct figures after further research.”
But still, I am avoiding your question.
"The Bhagavad Gita mentions this uttarayana motion of the sun but my question is, "which Capricorn, the terrestrial or the celestial one?"
I'm not quite sure of the difference between the "terrestial" and the celestial. It seems that by "celestial" you are referring to the sidereal year. I'm not sure about the distinction here.
I could offer a couple of points:
One point is that the lengthy account of Bhishma's departure from the earth takes place at the end of the book, after the main action of the epic. Most criticism considers much of this section as an interpolation, that is, something that has been added to the work with the accumulation of centuries. Many of the instructions and laws given by Bhishma there are considered to have been added long after the original work had been written by Vyāsa. Accepting this point of view, it might be argued that the astrological references given there correspond to the epoch in which the interpolations were made.
The work as we know was known to the ancient world. Even these interpolations have to be very ancient. The work as we know it cannot possibly be later than the 5th Century, since many ancient poets such as Kalidas refer to Mahabharata and have created subsidiary works based on it.
But it is considered possible and even likely by most critics that the Shanti Parva containing Bhishma's instructions and his death may have be interpolations created not long before the time of Aryabhatta. If that were the case, the Astrological Science prevalent during that time would probably correspond to that of Aryabhatta. If the "
sidereal" or
celestial version of Capricorn was prominent at that time, then the interpolated version would square with his calculations.
Since the ancients favored a Ptolemaic view of the universe, it might be best to side with a sidereal version of Capricorn. Again, I'm not the expert here. I leave it to you for homework.
The problem is that while it seems evident that certain aspects of the Mahabharata may be "interpolations" there is no reliable way to determine where or how such interpolations took place. Nor can one ferret out the so-called insertions. One must take the work as it is, since the moment one begins to apply modern criticism to the work and try to decide which parts may be "later"than others, the entire work begins to crumble under the pressure.
Another point is that, The Mahabharata is
Ithihasa, which means "history." But it is more than history; it is history, legend, myth, religious doctrine, and mystical reality--divine truth. So its meaning may be taken on different levels: as epic, as a work of astrological interest, as an ethical treatise or as the highest metaphysical path to yoga.
While it is difficult to separate the fantastic elements of the Mahabharata from such practical matters as dates and moon cycles I think it's important to focus on its sublime philosophy as seen in the examples of heroes like Bhishma. So, while his death and the date of his departure from this world are certainly worthy of study, even more important are his example and precept.
-Mahayogi
Ignacio Conde Ramirez replies:
Wilkipedia is correct in this one by quoting the great Aryabattha, who is the real source of this date for the beginning of Kali Yuga but we could elaborate further on this as Ayarbattha said that he found the date, probably from documents that we do not have, 3,600 years later. Scholars fail to grasp this data as it is simple 60 x 60, or 60 Brihaspati cycles of 60 years each, and therefore, Aryabattha found the date in the same Brihaspati year.
I have researched about for many years and i wish to have information if Lord Chaitanya celebrated the beginning of a Brihaspati cycle in 1507. The Brihaspati cycle starts with the New Moon in sidereal Pisces, meaning when the Sun and the Moon make a conjunction in sidereal Pisces.
There are two skies the sidereal or celestial and the tropical or terrestrial. Astronomy magazines offer the planetary data for the sidereal sky and in this way for example they say that the moon is going to be on a certain date close to Aldebaran (Rohini in India), at around 16 degrees of Taurus, but the terrestrial or tropical sky will tell you that Aldebaran is at about the western ephemeris show Aldebaran at about 10 Gemini.
Another example to explain the two skies is that the west the winter solstice is celebrated around 21 December, when the sun enters the terrestrial Capricorn, but in India the Makara sankranti, or the entry of the sun in sidereal Capricorn is around 14 January or some 24 days later.
There is a controversy about this "ayanamsa", or the difference between the tropical and the sidereal skies, in fact there are some 74 ayanamsas, some whimsical like the one proposed by Madame Blavatsky, others symbolical, like the ones given by Cheiro or Jung, and others are astronomical like proposed by B.V. Raman and Lahiri. The government of India in the 60's contracted Mr Lahiri to come with a correct ayanamsa, and since 1965 the Lahiri's ayanamsa officially was adopted by the India government in the preparation of all panchangas or calendars. Lahiri said that the zero degrees of Aries in both skies were together in the year 285, but because of the Precession travelling in average 52" of arc per year by 10 December 2009 the Precession had reached the 24 degrees of Pisces, and still going backwards until we will see it entering Aquarius sometime in 432 years.
Some people say that the Precession entered into Aquarius in 2012 when the Maya calendar ended but the evidence that this is not correct is that Orion is still ascending in declination. When Orion reaches it highest declination that means the entry of Aquarius, and at that point it will start to lose declination until reaching its lowest one, some 12,960 years afterwards.
According to my researches the Maya calendar is linked the Obliquity and not to the Precession. The Precession is linked to the Brihaspaty cycles and in one Precession of 25,920 years there are 432 Brihaspati cycles The number 432 is the prototype of the Yugas as there are 432,000 years in one Kali Yuga. And in a lifetime of Brahma there are 12,000,000,000 Precession cycles. From here that we get the number 12 as prototype of the 12 signs of the zodiac,etc.
In other words, i have found that the Brihaspati cycle is followed in India, Tibet and China, while the Mesoamericans used to follow the Sukracharya calendar of 52 years. Brihaspati lives in Jupiter and Sukracharya in Venus. These two great gurus have compiled Vedic information for their students and include calendars, the one based in 60 years and the other in 52 years. However, Both calendars come together within 12 months, once every 780 years (60x52/4) and this junction of calendars were seen in 1507, when the Mesoamerican people celebrated their last Fire Ceremony because the Spaniards were in town.
On 24 March 1507 at 0:08:56 a New Brihaspati cycle started with the New Moon in sidereal Pisces at Navadwip. Lord Chaitanya was 21 years old and he must had had celebrated the beginning of this Brihaspati cycle. Some months later, when the starts Kartikeya were opposite the sun the Mesoamericans celebrated their last Fire Ceremony, and some 10 moon months later, with the moon in Capricorn, Tibet and China celebrated the start of the year of the Rabbit.
The Precession was known by ancient cultures and it is followed by Vedic astrologers in what they call the ayanamsa, but although some scholars know about the Obliquity they still do not grasp all ancient cultures knew it as well. Ancient cultures like the Maya used to observe the Precession at the equinox days (beginning of spring) and the Obliquity at the solstice days.
Like Graham Hancock i too believe that Kali Yuga should have been started in 3,113 BC (there is not years zero in the Gregorian calendar) but Krishna delayed his journey on earth a few more years.
I have explored about the possibility of fitting the zodiac that Sukadeva Goswami disclosed in 3,072 BC in the Obliquity and thus found 8 Maya calendars of 5,125 years each within the 41,000 years of its cycle. 8 "suns" or calendars suggest four electric and four magnetic calendars in nature. In other words, on 23 December 2012 the Maya celebrated the beginning of a magnetic calendar.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4yjcuuf7vege2un/8Suns-2-new.png...
I am aware of the controversy in regard to the Kuruksetra War but some years ago i found an astronomer showing that it started the day before the New Moon in sidereal Virgo. His argument was scientific and well presented although i have lost the source of his web site and i was only left with the date. With this in mind i am confident that the starting was on 10 August 3,128 BC or some 26 years before Kali Yuga started.
It is confusing to deal with the two skies and today i have corrected my notes in this way by calculating with the Jagannatha Hora program the winter solstice and the sankranti Makara, the tropical and the sidereal Capricorns.
The Kuruksetra War started on 10 August 3,128 BC, the day before to the New Moon in Cancer at 23°04'48" at 15:46 at Kuruksetra. If Bhisma fell on day 10 of the Kuruksetra War, or on 19 August 3.128 BC, he waited 101 days for the Makara Sankranti to happen, or the sun entry into sidereal Capricorn on 28 November 3,128 BC, but if he waited for the tropical Capricorn on 13 January 3.127 BC, he waited 147 days.
Even the starting of this war is interesting: Krishna knew that the Kurus had been told by their astrologer to start the world on Amavasya day and in this way the day before he invited the Pandavas to go to the river to do a sradha ceremony to the ancestors. The Pandavas were confused because sradhas are performed on the amavasyas or the New Moon days but the day was the 14th tithi, when everything started ends in failure, but they used to always follow what Krishna used to tell them. On the other side of the camp the Kurus were observing their steps and were also confused by this move, but they felt that Krishna as the supreme astrologer knew better than their astrologer, and therefore the day was amavasya and they could not miss that opportunity to win the war and thus they started the war on the wrong day. Well, Krishna is also the supreme deceiver and the Kurus started the Kuruksetra War on the 14th tithi and lost everything.
In 2013 I did compare the translations of the Bhagavad Gita by Prabhupada (SP) and by Sridhar Maharaj (SM) as from both I see a better understanding.
"BG 8.26: According to Vedic opinion, there are two ways of passing from this world — one in light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns." SP
"BG 8.26 These two paths of the world, the bright and the dark, are accepted as being perpetual. By the bright path liberation is attained and by the dark path one is reborn." SM
The word jagat in this sloka means this planet, or the terrestrial sky, and the two paths mentioned are the bright path when the sun goes increasing energy from the tropic of Capricorn to the tropic of Cancer, (from 21 December to 21 June) and the dark path or when the sun goes from the tropic of Cancer to the Tropic of Capricorn (21 June to 21 December). see the Sanskrit words below:
8.26
śukla-kṛṣṇe gatī hy ete
jagataḥ śāśvate mate
ekayā yāty anāvṛttim
anyayāvartate punaḥ
sukla — light; Krishṇe — and darkness; gati — ways of passing (Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)
gati sukla-krishne –two paths, bright and dark. Sridhar Maharaj
jagatah — of the material world (Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)
jagatah –of the world (where persons are apt to follow the paths of jñåna and karma) (Sridhar Maharaj)
Other translations for jagatah:
— of the world; BG 7.6 (Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)
— universe; BG 9.17. (Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)
—–of the world (where persons are apt to follow the paths of jñåna and karma); (Sridhar Maharaj)
In my humble opinion, this sloka of the Bhagavad Gita 8.26 describes two paths in the first line; the sukla or light path and the krishna or the dark path. When the moon increases after the New Moon we know those 15 days as the sukla paksa or the half moon month when the moon is increasing or getting light, and the following fortnight we call it the krishna paksa or the dark moon month when the moon is decreasing or losing light.
And then, the word 'jagat' starting the second line of the sloka is translated as 'the material world', indicating that the past two slokas deal with the terrestrial sky, which is attached to this planet, and therefore the aroha and avaroha motions of the sun or its uttara and daksina motions respectively mean the cycles of the sun from the tropical solstice of Capricorn to the solstice of Cancer, and from the solstice of Cancer to the solstice of Capricorn respectively. (18/8/2013, 13:05)
This is very important to understand because astrologers are divided about which sky Krishna is talking about in this slokas in regard to the best moment of leaving the body.
There are two astrologies; western astrology and Vedic astrology. Western astrology deals with the terrestrial or the tropical sky, and Vedic astrology deals with the celestial or the sidereal sky. The terrestrial sky is called in Sanskrit 'sayana', which means the sky with (sa) shelter (ayana), the plane of men or this planet, like we see in the name of 'Narayana' that means "the one that gives shelter (ayana) to man (nara). And the celestial or sidereal sky is called 'nirayana', or the plane that has no (nir) shelter (ayana), or the plane of the demigods. Demigods pray to be reincarnated on this planet which has shelter to be able to work for liberation.
The motion of the sun upwards or downwards is understood to happen in the celestial and in the terrestrial skies but the division made by the solstices shows to man when are the best times for planting and harvesting, hunting, fishing, gathering of fruits, and rituals. This is why the solstices were very important to ancient cultures.
The word 'jagat' can be translated as world and universe but Sridhar Maharaj elaborates on this when he translates: "jagatah –of the world (where persons are apt to follow the paths of jñåna and karma." Meaning this world plane.
You explained very well about the interpolations and history but i know that new generations of students are going to demand soon more elaboration of the past.
You mention the Ptolemaic system, which is a compilation of the astrology practised in the Middle East around 2,000 years ago, while the Parasara system was compiled in India some 5,000 years ago. Although the former is tropical in nature the later is sidereal both both are valid and the only common point between both is the Horas system, which have the same planetary sequence even though they are separated by some 3,000 years and many thousands of miles.
Of course, historically Bhisma left us a great experience in regard to when is the best time of leaving the body, and in my opinion, the spiritual credits are considered by higher authorities when death comes to offer a suitable body. But still, when finding the dates given in the Mahabaratha corresponding to astronomical significance is something that encourages modern students. Even in the 90's we did not have powerful computer programs to find the birth date of Lord Krishna as 23 June 3227 BC. For astrologers, to follow the planetary data linked to his pastimes in Vrindavan is very inspiring.
Thanks to Ignacio Conde Gutierrez for his interesting research.
